Progress and 4GL verses SQL Server and VB/VBA

I just joined a new company which uses Progress and 4GL. I come from a
SQL Server VB/VBA environment. An in-depth "discussion" has come up
several times regarding Progress verses SQL Server and I'm always told
that Progress/4GL can do anything SQL Server/VB/VBA can do so why
should we switch. We also use a few databases designed by Infor for
Progress. I notice that there seems to be no referential integrity in
these databases. I would like to respond to our "discussion" regarding
'Progress can do anything SQL Server can do'. I've searched and
searched but I can't seem to find anything which compares what each one
can/cannot do verses the other. Does anyone know where I can find a
side-by-side comparison of these two database servers and a
side-by-side comparison of 4GL verses VB/VBA?

>From what I've seen so far about Progress and 4GL, I'm not impressed (I
don't like having to write 3 lines of code just to see data in a table
and then have to write another 3 lines of code to re-sort it on a
field, and another 3 lines of code to re-sort it again on another
field, etc, etc..
I'm a GUI type of programmer/dba and my new company is a unix/text
based system with (what I'm told) is the preferred method by the users.
The 4GL programmers tell me that 4GL is much easier to program in
verses VB/VBA.
I need ammo though to convince them why SQL Server is a better db
server and VB/VBA is a better programming language (maybe I'm wrong
though and for a unix system, Progress/4GL is the better route to go).
What exactly can SQL Server/VB/VBA do that Progress/4GL cannot do and
where can I find more info on a comparison of the two (without going to
the Progress website and then the Microsoft website and read about each
one individually?) The company's been using Progress now for 10+ years
and they have told me there is no reason to change.pkohn@.charter.net wrote:
> I need ammo though to convince them why SQL Server is a better db
> server and VB/VBA is a better programming language (maybe I'm wrong
> though and for a unix system, Progress/4GL is the better route to go).
> What exactly can SQL Server/VB/VBA do that Progress/4GL cannot do and
> where can I find more info on a comparison of the two (without going to
> the Progress website and then the Microsoft website and read about each
> one individually?) The company's been using Progress now for 10+ years
> and they have told me there is no reason to change.
I know very little about Progress and I haven't seen any technical
comparisson with SQL Server but here are some of my thoughts, based on
having dealt with similar situations myself.
Firstly, most businesses do not buy databases. Businesses buy into
solutions of which a database may be one part. The database itself is
more often chosen by the IT department rather than by business owners.
If your IT department has a large investment in software and people
dedicated to one database then that could be a very high barrier
against change. Regardless of the technical superiority of any
alternative solution the costs of retraining staff and re-engineering
other systems and technology assets may be considerable. So a technical
comparison won't necessarily be sufficient to make the case for change
unless you can tie it to some solution to a particular business
problem.
In the absense of some specific business opportunity it would be more
useful to think about a technology strategy that will meet the
buisiness's needs in future months and years. What are those needs
going to be? Look at the leading database vendors and see if they have
a track record or case studies that are relevant to your business
sector. Consider what products your competitors are using or may be
using. Compare your current database's market share to the position of
the top database vendors (Oracle, Microsoft, IBM, Sybase). Market share
and growth are important because they are what influence the level of
support you'll get from third party software. Crucially, those market
factors also help decide the future skills market. Put simply, there's
no point investing in some technology if you can't find the right
professionals who want to work with it (I don't mean to imply anything
about Progress BTW). Job/Candidate search engines are one source with
which to research this.
Finally, you should also reconsider your own motives and thinking. Why
are you only focussing on SQL Server? SQL Server doesn't run on Unix.
If your company has an investment in Unix systems then what about other
leading databases like Oracle, which may run on your existing OS?
Also, what exactly do you mean by "VB/VBA"? The VB (6) language has
been superseded by VB.NET. VBA isn't really an obvious choice for
enterprise database application development. I don't think I'm being
controversial if I say that C# seems to be chosen more often than
VB.NET these days. C# is generally judged to be a better-designed
language and is preferred to VB.NET by many good developers that I know
of.
I hope some of this helps. For SQL Server case studies and other
material, consult the SQL Server site:
http://www.microsoft.com/sql/default.mspx
http://www.microsoft.com/sql/prodin...es/default.mspx
David Portas, SQL Server MVP
Whenever possible please post enough code to reproduce your problem.
Including CREATE TABLE and INSERT statements usually helps.
State what version of SQL Server you are using and specify the content
of any error messages.
SQL Server Books Online:
http://msdn2.microsoft.com/library/ms130214(en-US,SQL.90).aspx
--|||Most companies aren't going to change their infrastructure just because the
new kid on the block says so. If you knew they were a Progress 4GL shop
before you took the job and at the same time knew that you were interested
in pursuing SQL Server and VB development, then shame on you. If you didn't
know they were a Progress 4GL shop before taking the job, then you should
probably take it as a lesson learned and ask more questions at the next job
interview. At this point you probably have two choices: 1) drive on and
learn Progress 4GL so you can keep this job, or 2) look for another job that
fits the career path you wish to pursue.|||On Sat, 17 Jun 2006 20:29:36 -0400, "Mike C#" <xxx@.yyy.com> wrote:
in <781lg.293$B95.261@.fe10.lga>

>Most companies aren't going to change their infrastructure just because the
>new kid on the block says so. If you knew they were a Progress 4GL shop
>before you took the job and at the same time knew that you were interested
>in pursuing SQL Server and VB development, then shame on you. If you didn'
t
>know they were a Progress 4GL shop before taking the job, then you should
>probably take it as a lesson learned and ask more questions at the next job
>interview. At this point you probably have two choices: 1) drive on and
>learn Progress 4GL so you can keep this job, or 2) look for another job tha
t
>fits the career path you wish to pursue.
>
That sounds like really sound advice.
Stefan Berglund|||>> Progress/4GL vs SQL Server/VB/VBA <<
I worked with Progress about 17 years at Chambers Environmental;
Newport Beach, CA. They made some unique computerized sewage treatment
equipment. They had bought a business package written in Progress and
wanted to develop a blueprint tracking & searching application and some
other enginneering support apps in the language.
My part was a classic parts explosion application with some costing
added. They had standard parts, but each job was custom built for the
particular treatment plant. It did it with their then-new SQL
offering instead of pure 4GL code. Being on UNIX was also a big help.
I was working with two other guys and none of us had seen Progress
before. We read the manual, looked at some code and taught ourselves
what we needed in less than a w. We finished the whole job in about
3 ws total.
It was a great development tool and much easier to use than Informix
(the other popular 4GL tool at the time), and much, much easier than
SQL Server with a host language. I do not think I would fight them on
this. If the tool was that good back then, I would assume that it is
even better now.|||--CELKO-- wrote:
> I worked with Progress about 17 years at Chambers Environmental;
> Newport Beach, CA. They made some unique computerized sewage treatment
> equipment. They had bought a business package written in Progress and
> wanted to develop a blueprint tracking & searching application and some
> other enginneering support apps in the language.
> My part was a classic parts explosion application with some costing
> added. They had standard parts, but each job was custom built for the
> particular treatment plant. It did it with their then-new SQL
> offering instead of pure 4GL code. Being on UNIX was also a big help.
>
> I was working with two other guys and none of us had seen Progress
> before. We read the manual, looked at some code and taught ourselves
> what we needed in less than a w. We finished the whole job in about
> 3 ws total.
> It was a great development tool and much easier to use than Informix
> (the other popular 4GL tool at the time), and much, much easier than
> SQL Server with a host language. I do not think I would fight them on
> this. If the tool was that good back then, I would assume that it is
> even better now.